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‘Anti-gay’ at Aro St flat meeting?

  • September 21st, 2008

Agenda gave time to an Aro Valley flat exchange with the Labour candidate. The You Tube footage has been pushed by Labour blogs for weeks.

 

The Labour candidate has been feigning hurt from claims by a gay newspaper, drawn from their coverage on the arguments over the Civil Union Bill. It has been part of an attempt to spread an ‘anti-gay’ smear.

 

For the record, I favoured the decriminalisation of homosexual conduct in Fran Wilde’s Bill. I drafted speech notes used by Ruth Richardson in her support of that Bill.

 

Though I ultimately voted against the Civil Union Bill it was not because I objected to gay couples being able to opt in to a status of committed partners recognised as such by the law. My reasons for the votes are set out at length in Hansard. A primary reason was because the companion bill which gave effect to civil union status unnecessarily treated de facto couples as if they had chosen marriage or civil union.

 

Civil union rightly requires on an "I do" to change the partners’ rights and obligations. But the new law extended the same consequences to people who had never consented. Indeed some may have been actively saying "I don’t " in staying de facto.

 

I sat on the Select Committee hearing submissions and sometimes chaired it (in my capacity as deputy chair of the Committee). Despite hearing literally hundreds of submissions, often repetitive, I tried to give submitters an idea of the likely response to their submissions.

“If people love each other why should they not be free to marry” was an argument heard scores of times.  The same submitters often expressed the view that long term committed relationships were in the interests of the whole community, and the state should foster them.

The trouble with both arguments for how the Bill should read was that it did not mention love or long term commitment anywhere.  While I shared the sentiment in favour of both, nothing in the Bill required either, or used them as a test. I thought that if those factors were to rule, they needed to be teased out into words or principles. 

I preferred the NZ Law Commission’s draft legislation, which followed Danish and other North European precedents. They focussed on the expression of a wish to opt in to a legal partnership relationship and therefore did not leave room for debate about what exactly the term "civil union" was to encompass.

To me people who care enough to submit deserve more than leaving without any feeling for how they’ve been received. I appreciate it when people are straight with me, and I try to be plain speaking in return. People know what I think and they usually thank me for  that even if they do not agree with me. I got on well with Tim Barnett, who usually chaired the committee because I trusted him and I believe he trusted me to be honest.

 So I tried to give submitters an idea of the issues that could mean their submissions would not change the Bill. Most members just let them finish and leave without comment. 

 In relation to the argument that love should be enough to marry I sometimes asked them how the law should deal with sisters living together, or elderly mother and daughter, or uncle and nephew. All of those loving relationships could be simplified in legal terms (inheritance, asset disposal on break-up) if they were able to opt in to a status that had similar legal effect to marriage (i.e. civil union).  Some days I asked whether love should be enough if it was 3 or more long-time friends. In other words on what principle should polygamy be forbidden  if love or commitment should be sufficient conditions (let alone how they would be expressed as conditions)?

One day instead of using as my example query the elderly sisters, or other relationships forbidden to marry I responded to a particularly strong assertion that the State had no business trying to judge the type of relationship as long as there was love (a view with which I had some sympathy) I mentioned that I loved my dog, but that was not enough.

 

Citing that comment out of context became  a gift to militants who saw alignments on civil union as a "friend from foe" identifier. Maybe they were for many people. I treated the Bill in the same way as I tried to treat all Bills before my Select Committee – that is by reading the words for what they actually said and the legal consequences, not for their slogan power.

 

Similarly used have been quotations from Hansard of a speech in which I described submissions that had nothing to do with the Bill. For example many gay couples made eloquent pleas for the Bill so that they could not be barred from visiting their partners in hospital. I agreed that they should not be prevented. Trouble was – any such problem never had anything to do with law changed by the Bill. 

 

Many submissions on both sides were exchanges in what are now called “culture wars”. I said I was tired of submissions from “grumpy Christians and whining gays”.

 

Sadly in a PC world  PC opponents gain weapons from such plain speaking.

My Labour opponent makes a feature of being a gay activist. He mentions it at every opportunity. Since my candidacy was first mooted his supporters have tried to paint me as homophobic, presumably on the theory that it will mobilize Wellingtonians to his cause. 

Initially I accepted the possibility that he was genuinely upset by what he’d been told. He is passionate. For example he thinks the AIDS Foundation position on taking blood donations from gay men is not militant enough.

 

But now I know he is well aware of the context to those statements. He no doubt feels it is working for him.

Comments

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  • Pat
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 6:18 pm

Labour must be very afraid that you will win Wellington Central to roll out such dirty tricks so soon in the campaign. They usually leave such unfounded attempted smears to the last week. Watch out for more.
Keep your head high and know that the truth will prevail. Let the Labour candidate stay in the gutter trying desperately to smear. The left believe that the end justifies the means. The more negative they are the more scared they are of your success.

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  • Sue Wilson
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 6:52 pm

You’re too much of a gentleman and too honest, Stephen. These militant gays are using their gayness and our liberal guilt to further their Labour political ends. Most decent gays wouldn’t have a bar of it or them. Filming you out of context and sending it into TV without explaining that he’s one of the Labour campaign team is getting pretty low. They must be feeling desperate.

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  • Jason
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 7:13 pm

It was difficult to figure out exactly what you are saying here, but you seem to be arguing that you were quoted out of context.

Well, you often tell us we should support you because you are an experienced politician. So as an experienced politician, you should have been aware of how your words comparing your relationship with your dog to that of the relationship between gay couples would reverberate.

You admit you said it. You admit you do not support gay couples having equal rights. It may be easier to blame Labour candidate, Grant Robertson, for your troubles than it is to take responsibility for your words, but you have no one to blame but yourself.

And, your two supporters here confirm the view that open-minded Wellingtonians have little in common with National or ACT supporters.

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  • Pete
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 7:24 pm

James and I gave evidence to that select committee and we appreciated that you listened thoughtfully and were honest in your remarks. We didn’t agree with you on civil unions but we’ll vote for you because you were honest and it doesn’t look as if many politicians are. The gay community isn’t represented by these guys who are attacking you.

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  • Jeremy
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 7:47 pm

Glad I had a look at this. This Grant Robertson and his helpers are a militant group using dirty tactics for their own political gain. Take no notice. They don’t represent us. They’re a minority with fabricated grievances. Most of us in Wellington live here with no problems. It’s a great community for gay people. What was that about legal work with no charge? Sounds alright. Now…

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  • Andrew
  • September 21st, 2008
  • 11:58 pm

Mind the pun, but your post has confused me a little.

Can you just clarify for me as a Wellington Central voter – do you support Civil Unions between gay or defacto couples?

I had the impression that you didnt, but your post implies that you are supportive.

thanks

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  • Jason
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 12:07 am

I think Andrew has asked a good question. Could you answer it please, Stephen?

It would clear matters up for Pete and Jeremy.

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  • Jack S.
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 8:00 am

The clips are pathetic. “National doesn’t know the meaning of queer”. “We know a word that you dont”. That’s playground stuff. How do we talk with establishment figures like Stephen on serious gay issues (and there are some) when this sort of stuff is being used in the campaign against him. To Grant and his short pants brigade: grow up. You’re not doing us any favours.

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  • David
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 8:19 am

Jack, have you actually watched the clip? Don’t use quotation marks if you’re not quoting!

The offensive things that were said on the clip were all put forth by Stephen Franks, using Grant Roberston as an excuse for his small mindedness is simply juvenile.

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Andrew

I’m glad that the law now provides a way for couples of any stripe to opt in to the standard form contract that is civil union (and marriage).

I maintain my concern about what the companion bill (the one that defined the consequences of civil union) slipped through. It modified over 80 Acts (down from around 115 from recollection, largely due to the combined work in committee of Lianne Dalziel and me) to automatically inflict ont de facto couples many of the same legal consequences as marriage, despite them signifying no consent.

I opposed that companion bill for the same reason I strongly opposed the much earlier Relationships Property Bill – that is that it took centuries to establish marriage as a consensual contract, not one to be imposed on women, and M Wilson’s relationship property provisions simply deemed de facto couples to attract the same rules as marriage (and now civil union) without consent and even despite deliberate contrary intention.

The companion bill was too boring for most MPs to read. Yet it was the key provision. That actual Civil Union Bill was just a facsimile of the Marriage Act, with its meaning to be determined by the companion bill. The vote on the Civil Union bill was called well before the companion bill.
Accordingly people voting on the CU bill were voting on a slogan, empty until later passage of the companion bill.

I think that was a deliberate strategy to reduce the apparent acceptance of the CU Bill, so that the votes on the CU Bill could be misused as a badging tool.

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  • headlessrd
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 11:13 am

I published the footage and I can guarantee it was not a Labour video.
And I am not a Labour Party member!!!

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  • Andrew
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 11:24 am

Ok I think that was a yes and that you are now ‘glad’ it is law.

But at the time as an ACT MP, you voted against it. So there seems to be some fluidity in your position here so i’m still unsure exactly where you are at.

Hypothetically, based on where your thinking seems to be now – if this was an issue before the next Parliament – would you vote in favour of Civil Unions for gay and defacto couples?

thanks

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  • JohnO
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 11:56 am

It would appear that Stephen Franks is very sensitive to the bad publicity he has visited upon himself.

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  • enzer
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 12:00 pm

Stephen Frank said…:’…that is that it took centuries to establish marriage as a consensual contract…’

Now that the Civil Union Bill has been passed,how many more centuries will it take to get the canines of Frank’s world to enter into a consensual contract of marriage?

And why does Franks have a bias towards dogs?

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  • Paul Williams
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 12:28 pm

Stephen said:

Sadly in a PC world PC opponents gain weapons from such plain speaking.

No Stephen, it was not your “plain speaking” it was the fact that you equated the love you might have for a pet for the love that exists between two adults. Your comparison was ridiculous and any sensible person would simply apologise.

Citing that comment out of context became a gift to the militant gay media.

Hang on there, I’m not part of the “militant gay media” (perhaps you could say who exactly is?) and I thought your comment was insulting – even with the additional “context” you’ve provided.

Stephen, I don’t know quite what your strategy in this election is, but insulting people’s not a useful tactic.

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  • Tom
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 12:30 pm

An incredible blog post. Incredible. If it was posted elsewhere I would not believe it to be genuine. Did you really just try and equate (usually sexual) love between two unrelated people, with love between family members? How am I to take this?

– That you’re really so detached to reality that you actually believe this?

– Or that you have sex with family members and can’t distinguish between types of love?

– A third could be that your site was hacked by someone who doesn’t like you, pretended to be you and wrote a fake over-the-top post to make you look ridiculous/demented.

I’m sorry, I can’t put it any nicer than that.

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  • Sue Wilson
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 12:44 pm

The attacks on you here, Stephen, say more about the minds of the attackers than your efforts to treat them courteously. Talk about twisting words. Take no notice.

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  • Pete and Will
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 1:18 pm

Take each personal attack as a mark of success and honour. Your first comment feedback above is proving quite right.
You must be really scaring Labour in local polling for them to bring out the ad hominen attacks.
They will continue to make wild claims about what you think but no matter how hard they try they cannot fool the people of Wellington Central
You have our vote.

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  • Paul Williams
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 1:34 pm

The attacks on you here, Stephen, say more about the minds of the attackers than your efforts to treat them courteously. Talk about twisting words. Take no notice.

Attacks, where? Stephen’s standing for Parliament Sue, scrutiny of his language is par for the course. What’s the alternative? Ignore this comment in deference to his extensive legal record or all those detailed policies about which he comments?

Either way, I don’t think you need worry, my guess is that Stephen will fiegn interest but continue on his ways because anyone who dares criticise him is surely part of the conspiracy?

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  • Tom
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 3:43 pm

Hi,

I’m not labour. If my post comes off as an attack, well, categorise it as such if it gives you comfort. But seriously, what is Stephen expecting? When he peppers his post with things such as “militant gays” and the stereotypical anti-PC cry (define PC, I dare you), along with the “if whites are allowed to marry blacks then why can’t I just marry my dog” tone of thinking, how the hell else am I supposed to respond?

On topic, how does Stephen expect his family love vs. spousal love to be interpreted? He says in his rant that the love should not be the deciding factor for marriage. He also says that such love is equal to the (non-sexual) love felt for a family member (t’was the example given) for purposes of justifying marriage. But what he does not give is his reason for thinking so. The logic he uses against gay people marrying, simultaneously shoots down hetero marriage (eg: if marriage should be allowed between a man and a woman, then what’s to stop me from marrying my sister?).

This is very clear.

He does not disguise his words.

They’re right there. Scroll up. Read them. They don’t need interpretation. They just need a basic grasp of literal english.

So how are you interpreting them?

Tom

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  • Tom
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 3:47 pm

I’m sorry if my words come off as a bit hostile. They probably are, but surely you can see where I’m coming from. Stephen’s viewpoint and logic isn’t especially uncommon on the internet… if you’re reading some kid’s myspace blog. What astounds me is that this is a grown man. Not just a grown man, but a grown man who seeks a position of authority. The level of ignorance that drips from his post is quite frankly astounding at this point in time. I cannot come across as anything less than a man in suspended disbelief.

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  • mike mckee
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 3:52 pm

That is the point, if you don’t draw the line somewhere, where do you draw it.
That’s one of the reasons I didn’t accept the reasoning for civil unions.
when you pass a law you give the Ok to something and official sanction.
Look at the present primary school teacher who is a prostitute by night.

The BOT and parents and MOE and Teachers Union are way off base to even suggest that what she does has a bearing on her job character wise.
It’s legal and according to the majority of the MP’s at the time its ok.

I’m just sad that more schools haven’t had the prostitutes collectives in for careers night.

What is a family?
what is the best environment for a child to be brought up in?

lets sort that and push that.
everything else is 2nd best.
MikeNZ

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  • Dylan
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 4:23 pm

Do you really think that same-gender relationships are really comparable to consanguineous and human-bestial relationships?

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  • Andrew
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 4:48 pm

I’m really disappointed Stephen has gone quiet on this. If there is one thing we don’t need its another politician who lacks the courage to stand up for what they believe in.

If you are against Civil Unions and other rights for gays – have the guts to say it. This dancing on the head of a pin and trying pretend you are supportive when you are clearly conservative on these issues is embarassing.

This is the problem with National in 2008 – stop trying to be everything to everybody and come up with some damn policies even if they wont be loved by all.

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  • Tom
  • September 22nd, 2008
  • 5:20 pm

Mike, the question at the end of your post is something that pretty much only you can answer for yourself. Your view won’t satisfy everyone; everyone has their own. You don’t need to agree with them but you need to respect that they are free to have one and make it part of their lives.

Stephen Franks disagrees. If you’ve read anything of his, you’ll know that he doesn’t give a damn what other people want, even if their wants have nothing to do with him. help us all if he ever makes it to a position of authority.

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[…] candidate for Wellington Central, Stephen Franks, is having a wee cry on his blog today over Agenda’s decision to air that embarrassing Youtube clip where he […]

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  • Matthew Whitehead
  • September 24th, 2008
  • 3:26 pm

The simple fact of the matter is that whether you think love between two consenting adults is enough to justify marriage or marriage-like unions or not, your words compared queer New Zealanders to dogs. Even if that’s not what you meant, that’s what you said, and you have not apologised for those words, nor have you clarified that queer people do not deserve such comparisons. If you didn’t mean to imply what you did, a clarification, retraction, or apology is necessary. Otherwise the attack dogs over in the Labour Party are fully justified in running their stories about you. In fact, if you don’t stand behind the implications of what you said, it should be a lot easier to justify an apology as a straight-talking and honest man. That’s all it takes to placate the “PC” part of the country, like me, who don’t appreciate having our viewpoints dismissed along partisan lines with nasty dismissive dogwhistles like the term “PC” has become. You should own your words and the full context of what they mean- and part of that context is that you compared gay, lesbian, and bisexual New Zealanders to pets, particularly in the sense that they love each other as consenting adults. That is not okay.

Oh, and for the record- I’ve never voted Labour in my life and have no plans to do so, and dislike their habit of partisan attacks in much the same way that you do- and that principle informs similar doubts about your own party.

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Stephen, do you intend replying to any of these questions? If not; why not?

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  • Matty Smith
  • October 14th, 2008
  • 3:59 pm

Going this long with no response, I suppose it is safe to assume that Mr Franks has decided to simply let his post stand, on the basis that it displays the malice and limitations of its author.

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  • Matthew
  • November 3rd, 2008
  • 4:34 pm

Oh dear

[1]If a relationship is loving it should be recognised by the state.

[2] relationships between sisters, brothers and family members can be loving.

Now [2] is true. [1] is the slogan that many supporters of the CUB cited.

What follows from [1] and [2]…

Can anyone actually address this argument? Or does responding by character attacks pass as rational defenses from Labour supporters these days.

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  • Matthew
  • November 7th, 2008
  • 10:06 am

My response in full is hereFisking Grant Robertson.

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